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Old 04-17-2008, 11:09 PM
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That sounds a whole lot like brainwashing and mind control to me... You would have to be brainwashed to forget all about your family and friends... And just what kind of memories would that leave you with... Most all of my memories, the good ones anyway include my family and friends... Ok anyway so your up there flying around in the clouds or whatever and you don't remember much of anything... So now you know that God is going to have to implement some kinda mind control in order to acquire this "joy and peace once we reach heaven" thing you were talking about...
I would hardly say that allowing absence of pain or sadness would be considered brainwashing. Let's start with the definition of brainwashing according to the American Heritage Dictionary...
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Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
How would the absence of pain and suffering be equated to destroying a person's basic convictions or beliefs? I would hardly say God is into brainwashing, particularly since He so obvoiusly gave us all free will. That would be rather the opposite I would think. That would be as logical as saying when you comfort someone who is grieving or when you pour out love and raise the spirits of someone who is depressed that it's brainwashing.

I don't believe an existence in heaven is going to be revolving around earthly memories. That would somewhat lend to the mindset that there is nothing worthwhile in heaven and that the core of our existence is based on worldly measures. It would make sense to me that someone who says he doesn't believe in God would feel that way since worldly things are all they really feel there are to grasp on to. I believe our time here on Earth is a mere speck of a much bigger picture. I don't know exactly what heaven will be like, I only know how I envision it to be and it certainly doesn't consists of aimlessly hopping from cloud to cloud thinking about only earthly memories. It revolves around perfect love, honoring God, absence of sin. I believe there is beauty beyond words or measure and that we have a purpose in heaven and are not left with an eternity of twiddling our thumbs.

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... most everybody is going to be in hell from what I've read in the Bible... Like you and me are rich Americans, on a worldly scale... The Bible says: (Matthew 19:24) "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." And sense God is going to be doing all this brainwashing and mind control stuff, why not brainwash all the sins away of the peeps in hell... I wonder about why people go to hell too ??? Well I know they go because of there sins, but thats not fair... If you understand anything at all about psychology, you know we don't all think the same way... What I'm getting at is that it is much easier for some people to live a sin free life than it is for others...
Again, God isn't into the brainwashing scene and thus why He gave us free will. You have a choice whether to sin or not. You have a choice whether to say you believe or not. God hasn't made a big secret out of the fact that there is a heaven and hell and a way to both destinations, so I'm not sure why that takes you by such surprise that souls do actually end up there.

By the way, none of us live a sin free life as you say - we were all born into a state of original sin. I think more accurately stated is to say that it's easier for some people to become angry or rebellious at knowing that some of the things they desire to do are considered sinful and use that as a justification to reject God rather than acknowledging Him and are unwilling to admit their own weaknesses and unwilling to humble themsevles to ask for mercy and forgiveness.

As far as the Matthew 19:24 verse, here's a pretty cool explanation:
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Like most scripture, this works at several levels.
I have heard "the eye of the needle" was a narrow gate in the city walls of Jerusalem, not the Temple, designed to protect the city so large groups on horseback could not enter the city. So it works at that level — that one must detach from all possessions and even get on one's knees in order to pass through "the eye of the needle." But the problem is there is no historical evidence that there was such a gate until well after Christianity was established, and hence well after this verse was penned.

So even though it works at that "narrow city gate" level, let's instead take it at face value. It is simply impossible for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle — it can not happen at all. So Jesus is saying it is impossible for a rich man to enter heaven because he places something, his possessions, above God. But Jesus also immediately says, "but with God all things are possible." So the rich man will be able to enter heaven if he lets God be first in his life; if he repents and believes the good news (trusts in God and lives in God's love).
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For instance, I'm not a homosexual so I don't have the tendencies to perform the sinful homosexual acts that they do...
So you do believe there is such thing as sin?

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But then I do know some gay people and I have not killed them like the Bible teaches, so I guess I'm sinning there...
(Leviticus 20:13) "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads". And what about pedophiles, I don't find little boys or girls sexually attractive, but they do... And this is not something that you choose to be, no one says to themself, I want to be a pedophile...
So how can your fair and loving God judge and sentence these people to burn in hell for eternity ???
When church deacon Bob was not subjected to these same temptations...
I'm not sure where in that verse where it states you personally should kill anyone? Don't mistake God's right of judgement to be ours (to which I will elaborate on in a bit).

In response about those who have sinful urges or inclinations. If you were born with a condition that is aggravated when you eat certain foods, then you learn how to exercise self restraint and not eat those foods so that you can live a healthy longer life. I think it is the same way with certain urges people find themselves with - whether inherited at birth or through environmental conditions. I think everyone has their own personal struggle in some form or another - whether drugs, alcohol, that of a sexual nature and so forth. It's up to us to ask for help in handling it and doing what is most healthy for us physically, emotionally and spirtually. We should also be sensitive to others for the struggles they are burdened with and not judge them.

Do I think all homosexuals are going to hell? No I don't. Before you even say I am rewriting the bible or picking and choosing, no I'm not. Leviticus was written in the Old Testament, before Jesus died for our sins. Prior to this then yes, I would give you a blanket statement that everyone who sins will go to hell, including homosexuals, adulterers, thieves and so on. The fact that Jesus died for us is what gives us the ability to enter the kingdom of God even though we are sinners. I believe we still have to honor Him, seek Him, ask for His mercy, confess our sins, do acts of contrition and put Him above all else.

Do I think that by just simply saying "okay, i believe" and not truly in your heart and in your actions show your love for God ... you are then allowed to just sin as freely as much as you desire and still give you a free pass straight to heaven...? No I really don't (because concious choice of sin without seeking forgiveness with true remorse and humility - I don't believe this is someone who is truly actively seeking God). I don't know exactly how judgement works - I'm not God ... I know He tells us that if we ask for His mercy, He will pour it out in abundance. I believe we have to seek Him, to ask for His forgiveness and do acts of contrition. I believe for the sins we haven't done this for during our earthly time, we will have to answer for prior to entering Heaven (this is where I believe purgatory comes in)... but the promise of eternal salvation is still there.

My last analogy before wrapping up this very long post is this. If I had a child who went outside and picked some roses not realizing it was the neighbor's prized roses that were very special or valuable to them... even though what they did was not proper, I would explain to them that they shouldn't have picked those flowers and why it was wrong. I'd have them go and tell the neighbor what they had done and apologize. Maybe that would be considered a very mild punishment of sorts.

Now, if my child was mad at the neighbors and they went out and picked those same prized roses out of spite and with the intention of wanting to seek revenge or to make them mad, that same exact action would warrant a more severe punishment because of what was in their heart when they did it.

I think God very much looks at what is in our hearts and what motivates our actions.
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