Expelled

[With Alacrity]

Hey Karl, wish me luck. I get to sing lead in Ode to Joy this Sunday. I won't say pray for me as yet.

~~~ 73 & God Bless ~ >"),Bob>< ~~~

[Tyrfingr]

Originally Posted by With Alacrity

Karl Sez:
And no scripture on earth, can convince me of any truth, lest it would say "1+1=2". Since i was a young boy, i always only accepted the truth that we know for facts. I mean true facts now, that stones are hard, and gravitation pulls, fire is hot etc.

Bob Sez:
It really doesn't take too much of a study of the bible to find out that literally hundreds of prophesies have come about EXACTLY as given. It takes only eight of them in order to have odds going into the order of trillions-to-one against that possibility. That can not be said for any other book...

Prophets have been around in history for ages, and made claims that come to pass as well. Like nostradamus and such, some come to pass. Others don't or eventually will. I have made some forecasts that has happened as well. Some are apparent and easy to make, and some are i admit, complex and hard or impossible to explain. But again... What is stated in the bible was written by man. I mean i have heard and seen things from eye witnesses that have no explanations when it comes to ghosts, poltergeists etc, that have no relation with religion. And still i haven't seen or experienced it, i can't say it's true or bogus, because i don't know.

But prophesies like i said, those have been done in the antiqe times as well as in recent years. A wise insightful person with a wide range and depth of historical knowledge, can predict things that will occur again. Newton predicted the french revolution, so did Voltaire. Lots and lots of them are in existence. Mankind never learns from past misstakes, and they tend to repeat themselves. But again.. I mean prophets were living people, and we are said to be using only a small portion of our brain capacity. And judging by personalites that has existed. You have everything from drooling morons, to Da vinci geniuses. And unexplained phenomenons of persons. It still comes down to wether or not you can believe. My mind doesn't, not by forced or choosen will. But just in and of itself. Passive functions of the mind can't be altered by any other means than brainwash or force of some kind.

Just take this guy for example.

YouTube - Kim Peek - The Real Rain Man [1/5]

All i'm saying is that the capacity of the human mind is yet to be discovered, and some minds are impossible to understand.

I just don't make any claims to belief in any way, and i don't dismiss the thought of an afterlife of some sort, i just don't know about any proof of it, nore of any form it could take, so i don't believe. I leave it to surprise at death, or if you have the time to experience a second or two of dissapointment, i leave it at that as well. But given the things i have seen and heard in life... Just a look at universe and life itself, why not an afterlife ?. I like the thought of it, i hope there is one and that it is good. And that's all i can hope for.

I don't need a religious scripture to tell me how to behave, i know in my heart what is right and wrong. Goodness and evil is easily defined, if you know what is right and wrong at heart. I know what hurts people and i know what is wrong, ergo i don't commit any actions of the sort. I keep pretty much to myself, philosophies a great deal about life and mankinds strange behaviour and mindsets. And generally about the things i can grasp, touch and understand. I think the key to a good afterlife (providing that there is such) is to lead a life of goodness and kindness, and not being a bitter ignorant and vile bastard. If we take with us the mind/soul, then i think preparing it and refining it in life is more important, than to believe and follow guidlines. Some sins are apparently wrong in your faith, as it is for any person of reason. Others aren't so bad that anyone deserves hell for it, that is just ridicelous.. I would sooner think that we all create our own hell if we take any baggage with us as we leave. Meaning that a person with bad consciense who are evil at heart will continue to be wretched and tormented thereafter. But again, providing that there is a continuation. I take nothing in that area as impossible or possible. I just act on how i am, and hope for the best in the end. Death is certain as taxes, i have no idea to what end either of them will amount to.

Originally Posted by With Alacrity

Hey Karl, wish me luck. I get to sing lead in Ode to Joy this Sunday. I won't say pray for me as yet.

~~~ 73 & God Bless ~ >"),Bob>< ~~~

Good luck, it's a challenging performence. And if you happen to have it taped or recorded i wouldn't mind to get a copy.

The best recorded choir part i have heard thus far, would be from Herbert blomstedt/Staatskapelle Dresden (1979). Great renditions of all the symphonies, the only downside is the slow tempos in the 3rd and 7th. I always liked Karajans tempo better in that regard, but as a downside there instead. I haven't heard any recordings of good quality of his performences. Only the 3rd 4th 5th and 7th, but the recordings are lacking a bit in warmth. No idea how many recorded versions of his there are.

*stirrs the coffee with a thoughtful expression* Guess i haven't looked hard enough.

Anyway, i think you'll do just fine though. Just go "humma humma hmmmm" and be ready for the words you remember

[CopyCat]

^^ These people crack me up !!! ^^

Bob sez: "Stay within the subjects parameters"...

Mitch sez: Subjects parameters my ass we have been talking about religion all along, you stop trying to change the subject... You jumped all over me in this post and then almost patted Karl on the back... Well I guess I understand that being I'm far more critical of religion than Karl ever thought about being... Thats because I don't like religion, but then I wouldn't like anything that gives people justification to kill other people just because there gay, or working on Sunday, or they believe in another God, or the many other reasons...

Bob Sez:
Wrong again Mitch, Look at my post "A scientific objection, not just a religious one" again. The objection is FROM and FOR scientific sources & reasons.

Mitch sez: Your scientific sources are religious ones... That is not real science Bob...

Bob Sez:
As always when you have no answer; you conveniently lump all religions and cults together with the exclusion of Darwinism into an attack. Are you running for public office or does having a fish with legs make you naturally slippery? I'd still like to hear some real candor as to what you made you so bitter.

Mitch sez: Oh yeah, the fish... The video talks about some old smelly fish that some fishermen found that some scientist almost 200 years ago thought was some kinda go between fish... Big wup, they were wrong it was a theory Bob... Scientist like to be proven wrong, it moves them one step closer to the truth... As for the carbon dating, if they got bad results, they didn't do it right... The principle of carbon dating is solid... And your right I do pretty much lump all religions and cults together,
I mean you all believe in a imaginary invisible guy...

Bob sez:
I don't know where you find where the Bible SAYS anything about the age of the earth. That is found by genealogies
within the Bible which I find no reason to doubt.

Mitch sez: Wow !!! With all the information that is available today you really do
think the earth is only 7000 thousand years old don't you ???

You've lost me. Where does a bunch of monkey bones have any relationship to this discussion?_?_?

Mitch sez: I see your going to evade those questions altogether... Are they to tough for you Bob, I understand... lol !!!

Bob sez:
Yah, how about them? Uh? What about them? [dinosaurs]

Mitch sez: I'm just wondering how they fit into your Bible stories... Although they seem to have been around for a awful long time, the Bible don't talk about them unless your going to bring up the couple of references to dragons... It just seems to me that with so many of them running around back then, they would be mentioned in a few Bible stories... I mean surely Moses must of had trouble with them eating up his followers and stuff...

Bob sez:
What about them getting taller? Does that somehow change their species? I've visited my late great, great, great, grandfathers home in Germany. I had to nearly bend double to get my 6'4" frame through the doorway. I have no reason to believe gramps had to duck to get into it but I have reasonable assurances that gramps was still human. (Did you know that Jesus height was about 5'2").. You must have skipped reading where I wrote about microevolution, "where an organism adapts to its environment with the flexibility already built into its existing DNA."

Mitch sez: Ok, the good old "flexibility in existing DNA" excuse... Ok I'll give you that one...
Ok before I go let me touch on that abortion issue... I don't like abortion, I think its murder plain and simple... But I also realize that the world population has doubled in the past 50 years... That is a pretty drastic problem Bob... Drastic problems require drastic solutions... Although I would vote for the sterilization of people under a certain IQ level over abortion... Something is going to have to be done globally and soon...
Best wishes to you, your wife, and that no account little dog...

[With Alacrity]

Goodness, you guys are really double ganging me this morning. It may be several days before I can get back with you but please re-read my post as I wrote it quite late last night, and I made a lot of corrections and added a few scientific objections this morning.
Mitch, I apologize if you feel picked on and gave Karl a hail mary pass. Maybe it would help if you read Karl's post and examine the content of what I was responding to compared to yours. I'm already on the defensive as I'm only one person with a life other than trying to counter attacks by two of you simultaneously. I simply countered the one that attacked me but there was no rancor intended. Anyway the subject to my post was and STILL is a SCIENTIFIC objection so please re-read my corrected post and respond to the SCIENTIFIC objections and please don't make it rancorous and personal. I sincerely do wish you both well.
~~~ 73 & God Bless ~ >"),Bob>< ~~~

[With Alacrity]

As the original topic of this post is a movie by Ben Stein (EXPELLED) I feel it appropriate to post this commentary by him that I received in my morning mail:

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning
Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees.. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a crïeche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'

In light of recent events... terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they
don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, cru de, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing yet?

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on
your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they
will think of you for sending it.

Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.

My Best Regards, Honestly and respectfully,
Ben Stein

[Stubblecat]

Wow. I didn't even bother looking at this thread until just now. I had no idea that there was a crazy-ass theological debate going on here.

Perhaps everybody should just agree to disagree here. It's not like anybody's beliefs are going to be changed here, no matter how convincing an argument.

[Tyrfingr]

Originally Posted by With Alacrity

I could go on and on but, this is the US and it is still better here than anywhere else.

I'm overseeing with statements like that, and learnt to take them with stride. But i will let you on a little fact, that im always having this little smirk on my face whenever i hear or read them.


At any rate, time to conclude this little debate then since it seems to have been pushing it a bit. A few words of human, down to earth words that i think we all can agree on.

Originally Posted by With Alacrity

Karl Sez:
And no scripture on earth, can convince me of any truth, lest it would say "1+1=2". Since i was a young boy, i always only accepted the truth that we know for facts. I mean true facts now, that stones are hard, and gravitation pulls, fire is hot etc.

Bob Sez:
It really doesn't take too much of a study of the bible to find out that literally hundreds of prophesies have come about EXACTLY as given. It takes only eight of them in order to create odds into the order of trillions-to-one against that possibility. That can not be said for any other book...

Bob continuez scientifically:
Do you think that losing stars every thirty years and never replacing them will lead to having 70 sextillion stars?

Why is it all right to inquire how life evolved but it's not alright to inquire IF it evolved?

They know that the moon and the earth are both the same age yet they teach that the moon is billions of years old but somehow; it only has a few thousand years worth of cosmic dust. (Remember any moon lander was supposed to sink out of sight into hundreds of feet of dust?) - DUH????

You must "picture" or imagine evolution since we never observe it in the present. It only takes place in the imagination. That's science?

If all that's all that is needed for life to evolve is having all the molecules in the right place and adding energy... Thats science? Sorry Charlie, that's stupid.

Remember? This was supposed to be about SCIENTIFIC objections to Darwinism and you guys made it a religious one- again.

>^ , _ ^< >^ , , ^< >^ , , ^< >^ , , ^<

I don't object to your two against one attacks I say: keep up the good work but please, next time; try to stay within the subjects parameters.

Of course it is okay to question IF life evolved. I'm not the least judgemental towards people who questions anything, or believes differently. And i can tell you why. We are humans, we live, we have limited knowledge and capacity to understand why (if there is a why) and how we came to be. Intelligence and reasoning such as ours, naturally makes us question. That is the very reason we move forward as a species, at least technologically. In thought we seem to be pondering about the very basic questions that has elluded man since the dawn of time. And i don't think we will ever have answers for them that will suit everyone. That's why we have come up with several options it would seem. And debates between people have been hard fought for centuries. A long period of cold war in the debates during certain ages, like the medieval all the way to the rennesaince. Debates also seem to get heated, because groups don't see very well eye to eye on certain aspects.

But for me, everything and anything can be discussed within reasonable terms. I entertain thoughts but i dont necessarily accept them, but i can stand them being debated. If things in space and solarsystems aren't explained so that it makes sense to me, then i accept the theory that makes most sense to me within the boundries of what i think of as reality or physical laws. Again.. Religion is something i have no problem with, i except that people believe it, i respect peoples beliefs. But i question things in it on the same premise that i respect that faithful people would question evolution. It would be rather arrogant to think, that other minds would *have* to work and accept things according to your own realities of imagination.

Like you said - You must "picture" or imagine evolution since we never observe it in the present. It only takes place in the imagination. That's science?.

The same can be said for religion. So, i think.. As i was going to say. That, interesting as these debates can be. I realize it must at this point be tiredsome for you to keep writing to two people at the same time. But i would like to end, by saying that. My purpose in these debates isn't really to disprove or speak in favour of anything. I always been in the middle ground, i go for reason and possibilites, and what i can know based on proof without doubt. You don't have to feel like defending yourself, im not accusing or trying to disprove or ridicule your beliefs. I'm only questioning at best on things i can't accept, and some questions might be asked in a wrongful or strange way i grant that. But i have no grudges or condescentments towards people who believe in creationism of any kind.

The only times i do have grudges and condescentments, is in that case, when people who believe in something wants to alter laws and liberties in accordence to their beliefs for everyone in society. That pisses me off. But aside from that, i accept that people believe anything. As long as it doesn't affect my life, there is no reason for me not to be passive and tolerant. That's how our society works over here.

As for replies, don't feel pressured on my account. Any person of reason understands the pain in the ass of these rants. And to be honest, at this point, i don't even know what the F we are trying to accomplish

Whatever it was i've tried by adding my own little thoughts and philosophies with no hard feelings. Believe in what makes sense to you all, that's all i have to say.

[CopyCat]

Yeah I know Stubbs, but if I could only just sway that old mans Christian
beliefs just the least little bit I would feel like my life was compleat...

[Tyrfingr]

Originally Posted by CopyCat

Yeah I know Stubbs, but if I could only just sway that old mans Christian
beliefs just the least little bit I would feel like my life was compleat...

The chances would be equal to him swaying your beliefs in his direction, and what is the chances of that happening ? lol

[Stubblecat]

I have no love for the ol' Sky Bully either (thank you, Joss Whedon for that awesome moniker), but I've found that religion is like Spam: It's best to just ignore it and let the gullible and the elderly get ripped off.