Heavens not so great

[aperio]

Originally Posted by CopyCat

I still feel like you are a
lost sheep as you do me...

P.S.

Interesting choice of words since we're talking about the Lamb of God, btw. Had to point that out.. Me thinks you believe more than you are willing or comfortable to admit.

[CopyCat]

Originally Posted by aperio

P.S.

Interesting choice of words since we're talking about the Lamb of God, btw. Had to point that out.. Me thinks you believe more than you are willing or comfortable to admit.

^^^

Yeah right... lol !!!

I know what your thinking, oh crap hes at it again !!!

If God is so infinitely forgiving, why would he invent hell to start with ??? Hes forgiving remember... Why would he not simply allow everyone in to heaven ??? And why was hell not even thought of until Jesus came along ??? It kinda sounds like something that somebody just made up doesn't it... Hell or the afterlife is not even mentioned once in the Old Testament and in fact Lucifer is just an ordinary angel in the Old Testament and not a fallen angel at all... So like was this all part of Gods infinitely wise divine plan of the ages to just start judging people at this point... And what about all the millions of peeps that died before Christ, yeah I know I've read (Matt. 27:54-55) Since that time all who die in faith go straight into the presence of the Lord. The unsaved dead remain in torment till the end of the Millennium when they're brought back to life for their final judgment. (Rev. 20:11-15) and that sounds so much like haphazard revisions that have been made to an already unbelievable fair tail that its silly... Hell is just silly in itself... I can't conceive of any amount of sins that would justify burning in hell for eternity... Adolf Hitler was a very bad man, but even I would not want to see him burning in hell for eternity... Does that make me more loving and forgiving than God, it would seem so... I feel like if there was a God, we would know it for certain, he would make sure of it... There wouldn't be 450+ religions in the world, there would be one, everybody would be on the same page... If there was a God, why would he hide from us ??? If he is all the time performing medical miracles, why not cure an amputee ??? Why does he not do one thing that we can say, look there is proof without a doubt ??? No wait, now your going to say we have to have faith... lmao !!! Faith: "belief in, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof".
I think I'll stick to my biology books...

[aperio]

Again, I'm not sure I can give you all the exact specifics I think you are grasping for, but I'll do my best.

My understanding is that hell was actually created to cast Satan and the angels that followed him into.

Matthew 25:41, "Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

I think it could be said that God doesn't send people to hell, they choose to go. If you make a conscious choice to reject God then you have equally made a choice to follow Satan. There is a saying that "the door to hell is locked from the inside". An interesting little piece to nibble on anyway.

God does not want us to choose hell. He chose to send His only son so that we could be saved from exactly that. If you had children, would you not set rules and boundaries to keep them safe? Let's say you told and taught your children how to live good lives and do good things and you taught them the difference between right and wrong and you loved them with all of your heart.

In spite of this they basically spit in your face and told you that they were going to do what they wanted to do and that your words and actions meant nothing to them. They left your house and went out on their own. They quit speaking to you, they didn't visit. They chose to do bad things, follow bad people and eventually destroyed themselves.

Did you want it to happen? No. Did you send them to where they chose to go? No. Could you force them to do as you wished when they have adamantly chosen the opposite? No, because they have free will and they are allowed to make their own choices. Does that mean you don't love them? Of course not. Does it mean that you are cruel and heartless and punishing? Absolutely not. It means that they chose their own path and destination in life in spite of all the teachings you tried to instill in them. It's free will.

As a parent you love them, nuture them, teach them and hope they allow those seeds to grow and that they will choose to make healthy choices, much as God does with His children. You don't brainwash them, you don't force your will on them and make every single choice in their life for them. Why not? Because that isn't how life is intended to be - we are all given our own free will and basic moral rights as individuals (but how would you actually prove that if someone asked you to do so?) I think it takes a bit of that blind faith without logical proof to believe that people have moral intrinsic rights and free will, doesn't it?

Do you have any pictures of your ancestors? The really old black and white photos that at this point are probably held together by tape? Have you ever been with a grandparent or even a parent who takes you through family albums and points out their parents, their grandparents, cousins you've never met, the family tree and so on? How do you know those pictures are of your relatives? You don't have solid proof in front of you. You have faith that what you are being told is truth because you trust the people telling you, much like Christians have faith in the written word of God. The irony of it all is I think it takes more faith to believe we were created as a mere unexplainable accident in the universe (and where did the universe come from by the way) than by that of a divine creator who created the universe and everything in it with logic and order.

You sound a bit angry about your feelings about God and religion for somebody that doesn't believe, and you quote the bible a lot for somebody that claims no faith. I know you will roll your eyes and get frustrated at me for saying this, but I feel like you are digging feverishly for reasons NOT to believe. Don't take that the wrong way cc.. you know i have nothing but love for you

You will be hard pressed to convince me that there isn't even a speck inside of you that believes God exists.

[CopyCat]

Yes I do have very angry feelings about God and religion because they are myths and not fact... I would so like to believe in your hereafter thing, but it just ain't so... And yes I quote the Bible a lot, I've read the Bible a lot... A lot more than most Christians I'm sure... If all Christians were to read the Bible as much as I have we would have a hell of a lot more atheist... See this picture below ???



You ever seen anything like that on the street corner before ??? I didn't think so... This sillyness is reserved for Christians... Just like the handeling of rattlesnakes to prove there faith and the tent revival meeting where you see people climbing tent poles and rolling and floping around on the ground talking in tongues... Hmm, I have to ask, have you ever done any of these things ??? It would seem to me that the talking in tongues thing seems to be reseved exclusively for the uneducated... God only talks threw uneducated people... Never once have I seen or heard of a renowned scientist, astronomer, or even doctor talking in tongues... I would think this to be a little strange if I were a believer... Oh, and you ask me (and where did the universe come from by the way)... That is a easy one, I don't know and I'm just fine with that... Only in the biblical fairy tail do you get all the answers... In evolution we have a long way to go in understanding all there is to know about our creation... But we have already found out things that God didn't seem to know... Like the world is not flat, I know you've read about the four corners and the ends of the earth, so I won't quote scriptures... Now come on nobody could ever think a ball or a cycle as to having corners and ends... Only flat items can have corners and ends, and this is exactly what the Bible is trying to express regarding the shape of the earth... So I think I'm right about this, at least I sure hope I am...

[aperio]

Do some people go all wacky and distort religion and the true image of God? Of course they do, that doesn't mean the source doesn't exist. Welcome to the world.

If you truly, honestly believe there is no God and no religion, then why spend so much energy getting angry over them? Shouldn't you be more angry over the fact that this is it and there's nothing more than what you've got right now? Seems like you'd be wasting an awful lot of precious limited time if that were the case.

I still think you are angry because you don't want to believe not because you don't believe.

[aperio]

p.s. Four corners .. North, East, South, West.

[aperio]

p.p.s.

Prov 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

Isa 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

Job 26:10 "He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters At the boundary of light and darkness.

Sounds round.

[Toaster_Jesus]

You heretics
Reserve A Spot In Heaven - The Only Way to Guarantee Your Spot In Heaven

[CopyCat]

[p.s. Four corners .. North, East, South, West.]

North, East, South, West are directions, not corners unless there on a flat map...
And then there sides...

(Job 26:10) [ "He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters At the boundary of light and darkness.]

"{Sounds round.}

circle: "shape of perfect hollow ring: a two-dimensional geometric figure formed of a curved line surrounding a center point, every point of the line being an equal distance from the center point".

A circle doesn't make a globe, you can make circles on a map though... And what about:

(Psalm 104:5)
[The flat Earth is established and can never move. The Sun hurries back to where it rises.]

That sounds pretty flat to me and the sun is moving while the earth stands still... And then theres
(Job 9:6) ["Who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble.]

I hate to beat a dead dog, but this is pretty obvious what the Bible is saying here...

You know I love you CC , cranky cat and all.
I will forever hold out hope for you... and you poor thing, now I'm taking you with me in my prayers at church, so make sure you dress nice on Sunday.

I love you too girl, but I think you wasting your time and energy praying for me, or anyone, or anything for that matter... Maybe you should pray for him to preform a simple miracle [simple for a being that can do anything] like cure just one amputee or maybe make a public service announcement on all radios and televisions around the world telling us he is real... Otherwise I'm going have to stick with all those really smart people that are doing things like creating nuclear energy, curing disease and trying to study and learn more to make the world a better place... I just don't think that those people that handle snakes and talking in tongues, you know the ones that believe in that unicorns, giants and talking snakes theory... I just don't think there prayer or any prayer for that matter are helping any at all... They need to unclasp those hands and start using there minds if there wanting to help... Praying is just a waist of time, nothing more... I have never seen prayer produce anything that random results couldn't, have you ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI

[aperio]

You are blessed (or cursed depending on how you want to look at it) today with the fact that I'm a little swamped with early week work to do, but I didn't want to not respond... so I looked to the web for a quick answer to your circle questioning..

Long before mankind in general accepted that the earth was round, the Bible declared: “[God] is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) The Bible reveals that “there is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth,” (Isaiah 40:22). Only God, the Creator, could have provided this detail.

The original-language word translated “circle” at Isaiah 40:22 also is rendered “sphere.” Certain Bible translations read, “the globe of the earth” (Douay Version) and “the round earth.”

The Bible also speaks of "the ends of the earth” (Psalms 22:27), “the four extremities of the earth” (Isaiah 11:12), “the four corners of the earth,” and “the four winds of the earth” (Revelation 7:1). These expressions cannot be taken to prove that the Hebrews understood the earth to be square. The number four is often used to denote that which is fully rounded out, as it were, just as we have four directions and sometimes employ the expressions “to the ends of the earth,” “to the four corners of the earth,” in the sense of embracing all the earth.—Compare Ezekial 1:15-17; Luke 13:29.

I am willing to venture a guess that we could trade shots back and forth on every point possible, both convinced we have the real truth. Well - me accurately convinced and you convincing yourself you're convinced (had to say that, you know).

So, fortunately (or you may view as unfortunately) for you, you were right there with me on Sunday (you looked cute with your hair slicked back btw) in my before mass prayers, my during mass prayers and my at home prayers. Just remember, you started it, like it or not.

p.s. When you're ready to admit defeat and go to mass, I'll fly up and join you.