Heavens not so great

[CopyCat]

I don't think heaven would be such a great place to go if while you are up there you are stuck in the knowledge that for eternity friends and family of yours languish in hell because they chose the wrong religion, weren't aware of religion or forgot to repent for one of there sins... Are you to forget about everyone that didn't make it into heaven and say oh well tough luck at least I'm here... And are you to think that God knows best when Mommy is in hell where she is being tortured for eternity, but that is ok because she deserves it... So how can any Christians truly say their soul can truly rest and be happy in heaven with burdens hanging on your shoulders knowing that you are sorted for eternity while others are being punished for eternity... And what about all those awful murders your going to have up there with you ??? You know dog gone well that everyone that was ever sentenced to death has repented for there sins right before they were put to death... And are you to spend an eternity thinking that if only I had preached to my sister/son/mother/friend/ that little bit harder then that might have just edged them across God's threshold values and got them in here... Or then maybe heaven is kinda like the movie "The Matrix" you know like God says take the little green pill and its eternal bliss... I think about these things, what do you think about this ???

[aperio]

Well I'm thinking that God would never let us be burdened with such knowledge and that there is only joy and peace once we reach heaven. I wouldn't personally say this callously or with disregard, but if you have someone that you loved that didn't make it to heaven, i don't believe that you will be mourning them or aware of their absence and suffering.

Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

To me that is a bit of a clue that we won't have heavy baggage of guilt and sadness for those not with us in heaven. I personally believe in purgatory also and that people have to actually "choose" to go to hell. (And when i say choose to go, i don't mean you just casually decide at the last moment)... i mean you choose to believe or not to believe, you choose to do good or do bad, and you choose whether or not you want to follow God's path or not...

I don't have children myself, but if I did I usually put it into that type of perspective. If I knew my kids loved me and were good kids leading good lives (ie they asked for forgiveness and were genuinely sorry for the times they made mistakes), then of course I would want to reward them. As they mess up along the way, of course there is some type of punishment (ie purgatory). If they were living their lives in a destructive and hateful way then unfortunately I would probably need to distance myself from them. I always kind of figured that is how God deals with us (since we are His children after all).

As far as exactly how God handles the situation of one family member in heaven, one in hell or equivalent I really don't know the specifics obviously... I just have enough faith to know He's got it all sorted out one way or another.

Are you sorry you asked?

[aperio]

One more side note that I missed in your post cc...

And what about all those awful murders your going to have up there with you ??? You know dog gone well that everyone that was ever sentenced to death has repented for there sins right before they were put to death...

God's not stupid. He knows when someone is paying Him lip service and when someone genuinely means it. I also believe that if it's one of those lifetimes of destruction and last minute repentance it doesn't mean they won't still have to be punished for those sins. This is where I believe purgatory comes in. Their last minute repentance may save them from eternal damnation, but they still have to atone for their sins. I also believe there are different levels of purgatory - some of which aren't so swift or pleasurable either. But it's through purgatory that a person's soul is then purified and made ready to enter into heaven.

So, basically once past those 'pearly gates' I don't worry that i'm going to be surrounded by a bunch of horrific murderers who just happened to say the right thing at the last minute. It's only the good stuff up there.

[layla]

Well, I'm not a believer in heaven, but I was just having this discussion with a friend who is a very devout Christian. She said that the bible says heaven is joyful because your spirit is close to the source, God, and that you don't miss family members who aren't there or worry about anything because seeing other people is only secondary to being with God or something like that.

[CopyCat]

I think faith means not wanting to know what is true... I think Friedrich Nietzsche said that, they tell me he was a pretty smart guy... And it sounds like you do believe in that little green pill of bliss...
And I just love how you rewrite the Bible to fit your needs, the hell with what it says in print...

God's not stupid. He knows when someone is paying Him lip service and when someone genuinely means it. I also believe that if it's one of those lifetimes of destruction and last minute repentance it doesn't mean they won't still have to be punished for those sins. This is where I believe purgatory comes in. Their last minute repentance may save them from eternal damnation, but they still have to atone for their sins.

Where as the Bible says: (1 John 1:9 NIV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (Romans 5:20) "But where sin increased, grace increased all the more." (Isaiah 38:17) "You have put all my sins behind your back." Out of sight. God no longer "sees" me in light of my sins. He sees Jesus righteousness for me."

I also believe there are different levels of purgatory

(Matthew 13:42) "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
(Mark 9:43-48) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched."
The reference to fire is repeated three more times in this passage for emphasis...
Now thats sounds pretty cut and dry to me, its fire... And no, I'm not sorry I asked...
I've enjoyed this... The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: Benjamin Franklin said that...

[aperio]

I'm definitely not rewriting the bible to fit my needs..I'm not entirely sure why you think that unless you misinterpreted something I wrote (apologies if that's the case). I will be the first one to admit I am far from a know-it-all, so definitely don't take my statements as claiming to be absolute truth. I am simply stating my interpretation or understanding and what I personally believe. That is what you asked for, no?

Originally Posted by CopyCat

Where as the Bible says: (1 John 1:9 NIV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (Romans 5:20) "But where sin increased, grace increased all the more." (Isaiah 38:17) "You have put all my sins behind your back." Out of sight. God no longer "sees" me in light of my sins. He sees Jesus righteousness for me."

I don't believe I said anything contrary to that. How I read this is that if you have asked for forgiveness you have received it. But frankly I don't think we always remember to ask forgiveness for every single sin we ever commit. And face it, we're human.. a lot of times we do things knowing it's wrong and then brush it off to the side or find ways to justify it. Those are the things I think we still have to answer for and what i was referring to.

Where it states that the greater the sin, the greater the grace - I think that is simply saying that his love and mercy know no boundaries. If you have committed greater offenses and genuinely ask for forgiveness and mercy, then He has that even greater amount of grace and mercy to pour out to give it to you. There is no sin that is greater than God's mercy if you ask for it. That is how I interpret that.

Originally Posted by CopyCat

(Matthew 13:42) "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
(Mark 9:43-48) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched."
The reference to fire is repeated three more times in this passage for emphasis...

I'm not sure what you are asking or pointing out with this. I read this to say pretty much hell sucks. I don't dispute that whatsoever. I believe hell exists and that it is horrible beyond comprehension. In reference to the second passage, if there is something in your life that is causing you to sin, remove it. If you're trying to convince me there is a hell, I totally believe that. No convincing needed.

Originally Posted by CopyCat

Now thats sounds pretty cut and dry to me, its fire...

I agree.. I'm not sure where we disagreed on this point? Maybe you misunderstood when i referenced purgatory. I believe there is a heaven, a hell, and purgatory in between.

[CopyCat]

Originally Posted by aperio

I'm definitely not rewriting the bible to fit my needs..I agree.. I'm not sure where we disagreed on this point? Maybe you misunderstood when i referenced purgatory. I believe there is a heaven, a hell, and purgatory in between.

Hmm ok I missunderstood you, it was not the first time...
So now lets talk about that little green ...

You said and I quote:

Well I'm thinking that God would never let us be burdened with such knowledge and that there is only joy and peace once we reach heaven. I wouldn't personally say this callously or with disregard, but if you have someone that you loved that didn't make it to heaven, i don't believe that you will be mourning them or aware of their absence and suffering.

That sounds a whole lot like brainwashing and mind control to me... You would have to be brainwashed to forget all about your family and friends... And just what kind of memories would that leave you with... Most all of my memories, the good ones anyway include my family and friends... Ok anyway so your up there flying around in the clouds or whatever and you don't remember much of anything... So now you know that God is going to have to implement some kinda mind control in order to acquire this "joy and peace once we reach heaven" thing you were talking about... Your just not going to have thousands of people flying around from cloud to cloud for eternity without somebody getting mad at somebody with out some kind of mind control... I say just thousands because most everybody is going to be in hell from what I've read in the Bible... Like you and me are rich Americans, on a worldly scale... The Bible says: (Matthew 19:24) "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." And sense God is going to be doing all this brainwashing and mind control stuff, why not brainwash all the sins away of the peeps in hell... I wonder about why people go to hell too ??? Well I know they go because of there sins, but thats not fair... If you understand anything at all about psychology, you know we don't all think the same way... What I'm getting at is that it is much easier for some people to live a sin free life than it is for others... For instance, I'm not a homosexual so I don't have the tendencies to perform the sinful homosexual acts that they do... But then I do know some gay people and I have not killed them like the Bible teaches, so I guess I'm sinning there... (Leviticus 20:13) "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads". And what about pedophiles, I don't find little boys or girls sexually attractive, but they do... And this is not something that you choose to be, no one says to themself, I want to be a pedophile...
So how can your fair and loving God judge and sentence these people to burn in hell for eternity ???
When church deacon Bob was not subjected to these same temptations...

[aperio]

That sounds a whole lot like brainwashing and mind control to me... You would have to be brainwashed to forget all about your family and friends... And just what kind of memories would that leave you with... Most all of my memories, the good ones anyway include my family and friends... Ok anyway so your up there flying around in the clouds or whatever and you don't remember much of anything... So now you know that God is going to have to implement some kinda mind control in order to acquire this "joy and peace once we reach heaven" thing you were talking about...

I would hardly say that allowing absence of pain or sadness would be considered brainwashing. Let's start with the definition of brainwashing according to the American Heritage Dictionary...

Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.

How would the absence of pain and suffering be equated to destroying a person's basic convictions or beliefs? I would hardly say God is into brainwashing, particularly since He so obvoiusly gave us all free will. That would be rather the opposite I would think. That would be as logical as saying when you comfort someone who is grieving or when you pour out love and raise the spirits of someone who is depressed that it's brainwashing.

I don't believe an existence in heaven is going to be revolving around earthly memories. That would somewhat lend to the mindset that there is nothing worthwhile in heaven and that the core of our existence is based on worldly measures. It would make sense to me that someone who says he doesn't believe in God would feel that way since worldly things are all they really feel there are to grasp on to. I believe our time here on Earth is a mere speck of a much bigger picture. I don't know exactly what heaven will be like, I only know how I envision it to be and it certainly doesn't consists of aimlessly hopping from cloud to cloud thinking about only earthly memories. It revolves around perfect love, honoring God, absence of sin. I believe there is beauty beyond words or measure and that we have a purpose in heaven and are not left with an eternity of twiddling our thumbs.

... most everybody is going to be in hell from what I've read in the Bible... Like you and me are rich Americans, on a worldly scale... The Bible says: (Matthew 19:24) "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." And sense God is going to be doing all this brainwashing and mind control stuff, why not brainwash all the sins away of the peeps in hell... I wonder about why people go to hell too ??? Well I know they go because of there sins, but thats not fair... If you understand anything at all about psychology, you know we don't all think the same way... What I'm getting at is that it is much easier for some people to live a sin free life than it is for others...

Again, God isn't into the brainwashing scene and thus why He gave us free will. You have a choice whether to sin or not. You have a choice whether to say you believe or not. God hasn't made a big secret out of the fact that there is a heaven and hell and a way to both destinations, so I'm not sure why that takes you by such surprise that souls do actually end up there.

By the way, none of us live a sin free life as you say - we were all born into a state of original sin. I think more accurately stated is to say that it's easier for some people to become angry or rebellious at knowing that some of the things they desire to do are considered sinful and use that as a justification to reject God rather than acknowledging Him and are unwilling to admit their own weaknesses and unwilling to humble themsevles to ask for mercy and forgiveness.

As far as the Matthew 19:24 verse, here's a pretty cool explanation:
-----------------------------------------------
Like most scripture, this works at several levels.
I have heard "the eye of the needle" was a narrow gate in the city walls of Jerusalem, not the Temple, designed to protect the city so large groups on horseback could not enter the city. So it works at that level — that one must detach from all possessions and even get on one's knees in order to pass through "the eye of the needle." But the problem is there is no historical evidence that there was such a gate until well after Christianity was established, and hence well after this verse was penned.

So even though it works at that "narrow city gate" level, let's instead take it at face value. It is simply impossible for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle — it can not happen at all. So Jesus is saying it is impossible for a rich man to enter heaven because he places something, his possessions, above God. But Jesus also immediately says, "but with God all things are possible." So the rich man will be able to enter heaven if he lets God be first in his life; if he repents and believes the good news (trusts in God and lives in God's love).
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For instance, I'm not a homosexual so I don't have the tendencies to perform the sinful homosexual acts that they do...

So you do believe there is such thing as sin?

But then I do know some gay people and I have not killed them like the Bible teaches, so I guess I'm sinning there...
(Leviticus 20:13) "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads". And what about pedophiles, I don't find little boys or girls sexually attractive, but they do... And this is not something that you choose to be, no one says to themself, I want to be a pedophile...
So how can your fair and loving God judge and sentence these people to burn in hell for eternity ???
When church deacon Bob was not subjected to these same temptations...

I'm not sure where in that verse where it states you personally should kill anyone? Don't mistake God's right of judgement to be ours (to which I will elaborate on in a bit).

In response about those who have sinful urges or inclinations. If you were born with a condition that is aggravated when you eat certain foods, then you learn how to exercise self restraint and not eat those foods so that you can live a healthy longer life. I think it is the same way with certain urges people find themselves with - whether inherited at birth or through environmental conditions. I think everyone has their own personal struggle in some form or another - whether drugs, alcohol, that of a sexual nature and so forth. It's up to us to ask for help in handling it and doing what is most healthy for us physically, emotionally and spirtually. We should also be sensitive to others for the struggles they are burdened with and not judge them.

Do I think all homosexuals are going to hell? No I don't. Before you even say I am rewriting the bible or picking and choosing, no I'm not. Leviticus was written in the Old Testament, before Jesus died for our sins. Prior to this then yes, I would give you a blanket statement that everyone who sins will go to hell, including homosexuals, adulterers, thieves and so on. The fact that Jesus died for us is what gives us the ability to enter the kingdom of God even though we are sinners. I believe we still have to honor Him, seek Him, ask for His mercy, confess our sins, do acts of contrition and put Him above all else.

Do I think that by just simply saying "okay, i believe" and not truly in your heart and in your actions show your love for God ... you are then allowed to just sin as freely as much as you desire and still give you a free pass straight to heaven...? No I really don't (because concious choice of sin without seeking forgiveness with true remorse and humility - I don't believe this is someone who is truly actively seeking God). I don't know exactly how judgement works - I'm not God ... I know He tells us that if we ask for His mercy, He will pour it out in abundance. I believe we have to seek Him, to ask for His forgiveness and do acts of contrition. I believe for the sins we haven't done this for during our earthly time, we will have to answer for prior to entering Heaven (this is where I believe purgatory comes in)... but the promise of eternal salvation is still there.

My last analogy before wrapping up this very long post is this. If I had a child who went outside and picked some roses not realizing it was the neighbor's prized roses that were very special or valuable to them... even though what they did was not proper, I would explain to them that they shouldn't have picked those flowers and why it was wrong. I'd have them go and tell the neighbor what they had done and apologize. Maybe that would be considered a very mild punishment of sorts.

Now, if my child was mad at the neighbors and they went out and picked those same prized roses out of spite and with the intention of wanting to seek revenge or to make them mad, that same exact action would warrant a more severe punishment because of what was in their heart when they did it.

I think God very much looks at what is in our hearts and what motivates our actions.

[CopyCat]

Grumble, Grumble, Grumble !!!
Yeah yeah, you make some good points. I especially
like the part with the kid and roses at the end...
But you know that this is in no way changed my
way of thinking... I still feel like you are a
lost sheep as you do me... I'll be back !!!
Grumble, Grumble, Grumble !!!

[aperio]

You know I love you CC , cranky cat and all.

Take your time on the response, this really took a lot out of me today... when have you ever seen my type THAT much in one post - or in all posts combined in a week? I will forever hold out hope for you... and you poor thing, now I'm taking you with me in my prayers at church, so make sure you dress nice on Sunday.